Comments on: The “war” http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/ Deities. Dogma. Dating. Diapers. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:01:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Fred http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-5004 Thu, 07 Dec 2006 03:03:49 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-5004 Mike, you can check Laura's quote in my post again. I stand by my interpretation that she is saying American Evangelicals are a fringe group in the greater world of Christianity and my argument that that's not the case. In Laura's defense, she seemed to be talking more about how American Evangelicals "confuse Christianity with democracy and consumerism" rather than the issues I focused on - birth control, abortion, homosexuality - but I would argue that they're all part of a larger problem with many religions; that religious people assume their beliefs, whether they pertain to sexual practices or forms of governement or economic matters, are supported by a Higher Power and are therefore unassailable. Mike, you can check Laura’s quote in my post again. I stand by my interpretation that she is saying American Evangelicals are a fringe group in the greater world of Christianity and my argument that that’s not the case. In Laura’s defense, she seemed to be talking more about how American Evangelicals “confuse Christianity with democracy and consumerism” rather than the issues I focused on - birth control, abortion, homosexuality - but I would argue that they’re all part of a larger problem with many religions; that religious people assume their beliefs, whether they pertain to sexual practices or forms of governement or economic matters, are supported by a Higher Power and are therefore unassailable.

]]> by: Mike http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4981 Wed, 06 Dec 2006 17:15:04 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4981 Fred: Another rejoinder. What I meant to say was that you cannot compare evangelicals in America with non-evangelicals in other countries. It is much more helpful to compare them to Evangelicals in the developing world. In Korea, Evangelicals are the most stabilizing part of society. In Colombia, Evangelicals were used as intermediaries to get the guerillas to start talking again with the government. In Lima, Peru, Evangelicals are credited with exposing some of the dirty tricks of the last President. Even in a place like Bangladesh, Evangelicals are helping to write the new Constitution. But in America, Evangelicals are increasingly getting involved with political opinion-making, and this has marginalized their message. But you are right...by becoming more political, Evangelicals in America look like Catholics in nations where they have always held the largest sway. Fred: Another rejoinder. What I meant to say was that you cannot compare evangelicals in America with non-evangelicals in other countries. It is much more helpful to compare them to Evangelicals in the developing world. In Korea, Evangelicals are the most stabilizing part of society. In Colombia, Evangelicals were used as intermediaries to get the guerillas to start talking again with the government. In Lima, Peru, Evangelicals are credited with exposing some of the dirty tricks of the last President. Even in a place like Bangladesh, Evangelicals are helping to write the new Constitution. But in America, Evangelicals are increasingly getting involved with political opinion-making, and this has marginalized their message.

But you are right…by becoming more political, Evangelicals in America look like Catholics in nations where they have always held the largest sway.

]]> by: Mike http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4980 Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:42:57 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4980 Fred: Laura's point was about Evangelicals. To be fair, Catholics and Episcopalians are not even close to being Evangelicals. As another Canadian, Laura, (one who has lived in the States for 18 years now), I have to agree with your point that right-wing Christianity is increasingly confused with democracy and consumerism. This is another example of Systems Approach when it comes to human practice. As a psychologist, I have rebelled against much Systems teaching when it comes to Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. In a nutshell, this is the belief that says "if you are "A", then you must be "B" and "C"..." If you are schizophrenic, you must be paranoid. If you were molested, you must hate men. When applied to politics, it sounds like "If you are opposed to Abortion, you must be for Gun-control and the War in Iraq". Canadians, with 200 years of unintentional diversity, have had to take a more "a la carte" approach to things. That has its advantages, but it doesn't necessarily create a good healthcare system any more, ce n'est pas? Fred: Laura’s point was about Evangelicals. To be fair, Catholics and Episcopalians are not even close to being Evangelicals. As another Canadian, Laura, (one who has lived in the States for 18 years now), I have to agree with your point that right-wing Christianity is increasingly confused with democracy and consumerism. This is another example of Systems Approach when it comes to human practice. As a psychologist, I have rebelled against much Systems teaching when it comes to Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. In a nutshell, this is the belief that says “if you are “A”, then you must be “B” and “C”…” If you are schizophrenic, you must be paranoid. If you were molested, you must hate men. When applied to politics, it sounds like “If you are opposed to Abortion, you must be for Gun-control and the War in Iraq”.

Canadians, with 200 years of unintentional diversity, have had to take a more “a la carte” approach to things. That has its advantages, but it doesn’t necessarily create a good healthcare system any more, ce n’est pas?

]]> by: Fred http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4963 Wed, 06 Dec 2006 03:12:56 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4963 <i>Laura said: The sad thing in all this, to me, is that so many here in North America do not realize that the form of Christianity modelled by the right-wing Evangelical church in the states is, in the grand sweep of Christianity, a small, (close-to-lunatic) fringe element.</i> I'm not sure that the American brand of Christianity is such an outlier. While non-U.S. Christian groups don't have the same preoccupation with what department store greeters say to them during the holiday season, on most other hot-button issues, international Christians seem to be just as if not more conservative as American Evangelicals. Pope Benedict was well-known for his <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4081276.stm" rel="nofollow">opposition to birth control</a> and his hardline stance on other "sexual morality" issues when he was a cardinal. Since becoming pope, he has hardened the Church's position on homosexuality by, among other things, <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46409" rel="nofollow">banning homosexual priests</a>, saying "that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder." Nigerian Anglicans <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9625-2004Oct5.html" rel="nofollow">have condemned American Episcopalians</a> for electing a gay bishop. Nicaragua, under the influence of the country's Catholic church, <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1932576,00.html" rel="nofollow">recently outlawed all abortions</a>. My point is that on the big issues - birth control, abortion, and homosexuality - American Christian evangelicals are in the mainstream with other Christians around the world. I would say that any religious belief system that purports to be the final arbiter on issues of morality is quite likely to be a tool for intolerance. Laura said:
The sad thing in all this, to me, is that so many here in North America do not realize that the form of Christianity modelled by the right-wing Evangelical church in the states is, in the grand sweep of Christianity, a small, (close-to-lunatic) fringe element.

I’m not sure that the American brand of Christianity is such an outlier. While non-U.S. Christian groups don’t have the same preoccupation with what department store greeters say to them during the holiday season, on most other hot-button issues, international Christians seem to be just as if not more conservative as American Evangelicals. Pope Benedict was well-known for his opposition to birth control and his hardline stance on other “sexual morality” issues when he was a cardinal. Since becoming pope, he has hardened the Church’s position on homosexuality by, among other things, banning homosexual priests, saying “that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder.” Nigerian Anglicans have condemned American Episcopalians for electing a gay bishop. Nicaragua, under the influence of the country’s Catholic church, recently outlawed all abortions. My point is that on the big issues - birth control, abortion, and homosexuality - American Christian evangelicals are in the mainstream with other Christians around the world. I would say that any religious belief system that purports to be the final arbiter on issues of morality is quite likely to be a tool for intolerance.

]]> by: laine http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4945 Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:04:06 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4945 Bravo! I want to be Laura when I grow up. Bravo! I want to be Laura when I grow up.

]]> by: shelly http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4875 Mon, 04 Dec 2006 02:27:35 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4875 I roll my eyes, too. I blogged about the so-called "war on Christmas" not too long ago. In short, I compared it to the "war on drugs": in my view, they're both a load of crap. http://blog.demiurgiclust.net/archive/215 I roll my eyes, too.

I blogged about the so-called “war on Christmas” not too long ago. In short, I compared it to the “war on drugs”: in my view, they’re both a load of crap.

http://blog.demiurgiclust.net/archive/215

]]> by: Laura http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4849 Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:11:12 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4849 While I can understand the frustration of someone whose faith was once mainstream (and still is in the states, much more so than here in Canada) who sees the faith grow more and more marginalized, knowing that the faith is no longer one of the supporting timbers of the culture. But, ultimately, faith is an internal thing. It is best manifest in a person's behaviour, choices, and interactions with others. If enough people live the faith (in a positive way, I'd hope!) it will impact on society at large. But it's done one person at a time. It is NOT best manifest as displays at Target. I wonder if the reason this irks so badly is that too many American Christians confuse "Christianity" with "democracy" and "consumerism" - three quite distinct terms. (Seems to me Jesus got a bit irked himself when the "free market" invaded the temple...) The sad thing in all this, to me, is that so many here in North America do not realize that the form of Christianity modelled by the right-wing Evangelical church in the states is, in the grand sweep of Christianity, a small, (close-to-lunatic) fringe element. While I can understand the frustration of someone whose faith was once mainstream (and still is in the states, much more so than here in Canada) who sees the faith grow more and more marginalized, knowing that the faith is no longer one of the supporting timbers of the culture.

But, ultimately, faith is an internal thing. It is best manifest in a person’s behaviour, choices, and interactions with others. If enough people live the faith (in a positive way, I’d hope!) it will impact on society at large. But it’s done one person at a time. It is NOT best manifest as displays at Target.

I wonder if the reason this irks so badly is that too many American Christians confuse “Christianity” with “democracy” and “consumerism” - three quite distinct terms. (Seems to me Jesus got a bit irked himself when the “free market” invaded the temple…)

The sad thing in all this, to me, is that so many here in North America do not realize that the form of Christianity modelled by the right-wing Evangelical church in the states is, in the grand sweep of Christianity, a small, (close-to-lunatic) fringe element.

]]> by: Larc http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4848 Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:28:01 +0000 http://ftlog.meanderwithme.com/2006/12/the-war/#comment-4848 I know. We just had a huge thing where the city of Berkley had a nativity on government grounds. Some people were accusing the ACLU of being anti-American for wanting it moved to church grounds. It did end up being moved to church property (thank goodness). I have NO PROBLEM with nativity scenes, I have problems with people saying that people who believe in seperation of church and state are un-American and "terrorists". I rolled my eyes, too, btw. I know. We just had a huge thing where the city of Berkley had a nativity on government grounds. Some people were accusing the ACLU of being anti-American for wanting it moved to church grounds. It did end up being moved to church property (thank goodness). I have NO PROBLEM with nativity scenes, I have problems with people saying that people who believe in seperation of church and state are un-American and “terrorists”.

I rolled my eyes, too, btw.

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